Former President Donald Trump allegedly insulted then–Vice President Mike Pence on a phone call just hours before the attack on the U.S. Capitol on Jan. 6, 2021.
On Sunday, Oct. 26, ABC News chief Washington correspondent and author Jonathan Karl shared what he says are Pence’s handwritten notes from that conversation. The notes—never before made public—suggest Trump again pressed Pence to reject certification of the 2020 election results and falsely claim the vote was rigged in favor of Joe Biden.
During the call, which took place shortly before Trump addressed his “Save America” rally in Washington, D.C., he reportedly told Pence he would “go down as a wimp” if he refused to side with him. Pence’s notes quote Trump saying, “If you do that, I made a big mistake 5 years ago.”
Pence’s notations appear to include other direct quotes from the conversation. “You’re not protecting our country, you’re supposed to support + defend our country,” he wrote, adding his own reply: “I said we both [took] an oath to support + defend the Constitution.” Another line reads, “It doesn’t take courage to break the law. It takes courage to uphold the law.”
At one point, Pence even drew an angry face emoji and wrote, “You listen to the wrong people,” a remark he attributed to Trump.
Karl posted a photo of the notes on X, explaining that they appear in his forthcoming book Retribution: Donald Trump and the Campaign That Changed America, out Tuesday, Oct. 28. According to ABC News reporting, the notes—apparently jotted in Pence’s planner—were obtained by special counsel Jack Smith during his investigation into Trump’s actions surrounding Jan. 6.
After Trump’s rally speech that day, his supporters stormed the Capitol as Congress was certifying the election results under Pence’s supervision. Five people died as a result of the chaos, including four law enforcement officers who later took their own lives. Capitol Police Officer Brian Sicknick suffered two strokes and died hours after confronting rioters.
Pence was rushed to safety as rioters shouted “Hang Mike Pence” and branded him a traitor. According to a Justice Department filing from October 2024, Trump appeared unconcerned when told of his vice president’s danger, allegedly responding, “So what?”
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In a November 2021 interview with Karl, Trump said he believed Pence was “well protected.” When Karl referenced the violent chants, Trump replied, “Well, the people were very angry,” adding, “It’s common sense that you’re supposed to protect [the country]. How can you—if you know a vote is fraudulent, right? How can you pass a fraudulent vote to Congress?”
This wasn’t the first time reports surfaced that Trump disparaged Pence on that call. In June 2022, former aide Nicholas Luna testified to the House committee investigating Jan. 6 that Trump used the word “wimp” during the exchange. Ivanka Trump later described the call as “pretty heated,” and her chief of staff Julie Radford said Trump used “the P-word” when referring to Pence.
Reporting by The New York Times similarly claimed Trump told his vice president he could “either go down in history as a patriot [or] go down in history as a p—-.”
In a July 2023 interview on CNN’s State of the Union, Pence said he was “not yet convinced” that Trump’s actions on Jan. 6 were criminal.
